September 15, 2006
"A challenge - on the level of an intellectual query..."
Mike Plaiss sent me a link to the Pope's recent speech. You can easily see that it is not some sort of anti-Muslim rant. I like this take, by Amy Welborn:
...But what of his words on Islam? I have maintained that it wasn't an idle historical reference. It was a challenge - on the level of an intellectual query - to the assumptions driving much of contemporary Islam. Violence, jihad, hatred of non-Muslims, and a restriction of their rights to worship in Muslim countries are inarguably elements of contemporary Islam to varying extents, in various parts of the globe. Six hundred years ago, this came up in a dialogue - the answer pointed to a dilemma: the Muslim said that God was greater than any of his own precepts.
The question becomes then - what basis for "dialogue" can there be in this context?
Just as, the Pope proceeds to ask, what basis for dialogue can there be in the modern world when religious questions and sensibilities are deleted from the discussion even before we start?
Since there are, indeed, many ways of thinking under the umbrella of "Islam" and there is no central magisterium, we always issue caveats about proclaiming what Islam teaches or the way of Islam in the modern world. But I think it's safe to say that the drumbeat is getting terrifically tedious. It's the drumbeat of constant offense coupled with a Muslim world in which Christians and Jews and the West in general are vilified, in which, for the most part in Muslim states, there is either very little or no freedom of religion for non-Muslims or the threat of violence by Muslims against non-Muslims, in which the most destructive acts of terror are committed explictly in the name of Allah - they are offended?
The Pope held up an interesting question for us to contemplate: Who is God? How can we talk about God? What does God's existence and nature then imply about the way human beings are to live together on this planet? When true reason is abandoned as an attribute and expression of God, what hope is there for dialogue and peace?
The "Muslim" response to the Pope ironically and unwittingly answers his question, don't you think?...[emphasis added by JW]
Update: The Vatican link is squirelly, at least for me. Here it is in plain text: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/s%0Aeptember/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-%0Aregensburg_en.html
Posted by John Weidner at September 15, 2006 08:18 AM
This one just absolutely floors me. How does one co-exist with willful, aggressive ignorance? Nothing has sucked away my hope for the future nearly as much as this story.
Posted by: Ethan Hahn at September 15, 2006 03:45 PMI'm not exactly sure what you are saying. The angry Muslim mobs, etc, are much the same as in the cartoons affair. We been there, done that, but those guys we already knew were nutjobs.
If there are thoughtful souls in the Moslem world (or the Christian world, for that matter) we won't hear them now, not over the clamor. That will happen on a longer time scale, and more quietly.
And if there aren't, well, the uglier they are, the more likely we, and especially Europe, are to wake up and get serious. Or if Europe can never get serious, then the faster they surrender the quicker the suspense will be ended. (Sorry, I'm being flippant. A mood.)
I'm fascinated by the thought of the Pope assuming—maybe, maybe—the role of leader in confronting a grave danger. Like his predecessor. The more I learn about this man, the more impressed I am.
Posted by: John Weidner at September 15, 2006 04:43 PMImpressive the Pope definitely is.
The problem, though, do we have the time to let people like him on both sides of the religious fence do the work needed to ratchet tensions downward?
Between Kim Jong Il and A.Q. Khan's mischief, we may find ourselves in the world of The Three Conjectures sooner than we think.
The Belmont Club's original post:
http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/2003/09/three-conjectures-pew-poll-finds-40-of.html
And Steven den Beste's commentary on it:
http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2003/11/Threeconjectures.shtml
And Oh how glad I am, Ethan, that we are fighting on clean ground. I HATED the cartoon controversy.
I believe in freedom of speech, but I dispise the whole modern notion that serious things ought to be mocked by dirty little boys, or that there is somehow some kind of "virtue" in smutty ridicule-everything outpourings.
But to stand with his Holiness quoting Manual II Paleologos...now this will be FUN!
Posted by: John Weidner at September 15, 2006 06:23 PMJohn - I agree on all your points - I just guess I'd hoped it wouldn't come to this. I mean, the cartoon thing, even as foolish as it was, could almost be chalked up to truly offensive images being thrust at a culture very un-used to such things. But this? The pope wanted to discuss the intersection of faith and reason. He illustrated it with a story drawn from the historical record. And nobody reads the speech - nobody looks to see what he was actually saying - they just thrust out-of-context quotes of quotes out as though it had something to do with what he was arguing. It's utter insanity. It's willful ignorance. And it's supremely anti-Muslim - I mean, these folks preserved and advanced knowledge back in their day, they are not strangers to rigorous thought.
And yes, I understand that there are extremists who need to be defeated - I guess it's just that the magnitude of the task really struck home with this story. I do believe that the average muslim dude is honestly trying to follow God's will, to do good, to live a good life, to be left alone and to leave others alone. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't have such confidence in the Reagan-esque Yearning of the Human Spirit For Freedom thing.
But man, if this story doesn't really take the wind out of my sails.
Now, I'll still do what it takes to defeat the intolerance, the despotism (be it of a tyrant or a mob), the terror and the hatred - and while I still hope that can be accomplished by transforming muslim society rather than defeating it, I'm not going to shrink from defeating it if it chooses not to grow the fuck up - but man, this really, truly brings it home for me. As they say, we aren't even at the end of the beginning...
Posted by: Ethan Hahn at September 15, 2006 08:42 PMAnd furthermore, frickin' CAIR has taken this opportunity to lecture us on how we need to understand true Islam. No, I'm sorry, fuck you, it's our turn. You need to sit the fuck down and understand us for a little bit here - understand something called dialogue. Dialogue doesn't only consist of you flapping your word hole about how oppressive we are - it also consists of shutting the fuck up and listening to intelligent people discuss nuanced subjects without burning them in effigy.
And furthermore, do you, Mr. CAIR guy, realize that the pope believes and has stated that me and my wife and our beliefs are wrong, are harmful to ourselves and our community, are destructive and self-centered? And that we have yet to burn him in effigy? Aargh, you need to GROW THE FUCK UP.
Sorry...the hubris just drives me frickin' nuts. Burning a man in effigy because you perceive he may not have been sensitive enough to your feelings? Christ, you're burning him in effigy! Does not your head explode from irony?
Amen, brother.
I sure hope the Holy Father has competent security staff.
"The lord preserve him, and give him life, and make him blessed upon the earth, and deliver him not to the will of his enemies."
Posted by: John Weidner at September 15, 2006 09:18 PM
